Someone asked what I meant about Sophie's neck, so I thought a picture would help. Sophie is developing this lovely muscling along the top of her neck and the bottom muscle is no longer obscenely huge. But the middle muscling is lacking. You can see it pretty well in this picture. I drew little dots around the caved in area.
This picture kind of shows what I mean about how being on the bit helps. Except she obviously isn't on the bit here, but you can see how the caved in part looks more filled. It's even better when she's actually moving and coming through and working over her back. She also is lifting more from the base of her neck when moving and her nose is further in front of the vertical when actually moving as well.
I tried figuring out which muscle it is, but couldn't. It's not her cervical trapezius though, that seems to be the muscle that *is* getting developed. I'm a little nervous for Sophie tomorrow because I know that Kim demands more than I do, but I think she'll be fine, plus it's a short lesson.
5 comments:
Sophie is adorable. She looks like such a sweetie :-) Is she very young?
Since I sort of started this ;-) I’ll throw in my 2 cents, but please feel free to ignore me if you want… It looks to me (and I’m not a vet) like the serratus ventralis cervicis (or cervical ventral serrate): it attaches to the lower cervical vertebrae of the neck (the 3rd to the 7th) and plays a role in supporting the scapula, lifting the ribcage and, most importantly, it flexes the lower part of the neck side to side and is involved in lifting and extending the base of the neck as well as lightening the forehand to facilitate true collection.
If it is underdeveloped or atrophied it usually means the horse is not bending through the base of the neck in lateral flexion or lifting the base of the neck when in longitudinal flexion as it should. It also might indicate that the horse is continually bracing that part of the neck and contracting the back.
You mentioned that during your ride you felt like she was behind the vertical or close to it (even if she wasn’t actually when you looked in the mirror): this muscle will often be weak or underdeveloped when the horse is regularly ridden deep or broken behind the poll, as the muscle cannot lift and flex the base of the neck when the top is over-stretched – this may also be part of why you describe her neck as being s-shaped and hard to straighten, as these muscles work the neck near the base (where the neck is stabilized) allowing the bend to continue through the ribs, etc., whereas a horse broken behind the poll will likely bend in the upper portion of the neck and brace the lower, making it impossible for the bend to continue through the body. Another scenario for this muscle being hollow is if the horse is ewe-necked or continually goes above the bit…
But if, as you say, her work is getting her to lift more at the base of her neck and ride in a longer outline, then she may be on her way to developing the muscle properly.
Anyway, it’s late and my brain is really tired, so I hope that all made sense. But, like I said, I’m not a vet and I only have a photo to go on, so I could be wrong…
Thanks so much! When I ride her she isn't BTV, or close to it, but when my instructor rides her it's closer to BTV. We have a different viewpoint on that so I'm trying to balance my view with hers. She wants me to ride with my hands wide to encourage Sophie to bring her head down, but I've found that riding with them in "normal" position and doing lots of leg yielding on circles and straight lines while "playing the bit" a little (solely through flexing my ring finger on the rein) while applying inside leg to push her into the outside rein. This generally works like a charm to get her to relax and seek the bit. After some good work of doing that she will quite willingly do a stretchy circle with me doing nothing but keeping my inside leg active and feeding her the reins slowly (no see sawing or using my hands to encourage the reach).
Sophie is 8, but doesn't look it. Just by using the mirrors it looked like she was pretty correct when I was riding her in my lesson, her poll was the highest point and her throatlatch was open. When my instructor rode her today it wasn't the same and what I think is the 3rd vertebrae was the highest point at times.
Sophie was very bad about going above the bit (and still has her moments) when I got her. I don't know how much of it was what she was used to doing or how much of it was having the winter off. But I think she braces as well.
I probably wasn't clear enough, but I was worried about her being BTV by increasing my usage of the outside rein, but I think she really was ok. But I think it helped to use leg and seat to keep her forward and as little of my hands as possible. I was especially worried because as I said, my instructor and I don't see eye to eye on training in some areas. She's great in a lot of areas and I definitely need the eyes on the ground and am very happy with the boarding facility, and get a lot out of my lessons with her, but sometimes I try to find the line between questioning some methods and trying to still do as she asks. It's frustrating, especially after a day like today, but it's better than no lessons. I just need to keep reading on my own and not lose sight of my values when it comes to riding.
it sounds to me like you're doing exactly the right thing for her with these exercises. i think your instincts are good :-)
if you're having an issue with her coming above the bit, bracing, locking her jaw, etc., have you tried raising your hand? it sounds counterproductive, but lifting the bit into the corners of the mouth momentarily and then gently taking the head slightly to the side will release the muscles that raise the neck, and will cause her to relax her neck down, and then you can release the rein and let her stretch and round correctly... it looks freaky to other riders who don't know what you are trying to do, but it works, and then you can get your hands back in a normal position. just a thought :-)
i know how tough it is to work out those sorts of issues with a trainer. i'm glad you're able to find a balance there without letting anyone push you past what you're comfortable with. i learned the hard way to stand up for my horses after a trainer i worked with ignored me when i told him my horse was too tired to continue jumping and he ended up spraining his check ligament and on 6 months stall rest (we also had to cancel florida)... so definitely take advantage of all the stuff your trainer does well, but know where you draw the line too.
Yes! Raising my hand works, not widening/lowering them. That's the other part of what I do, raise my hand a bit and then wiggle my rein finger and generally she relaxes and reaches for the bit when I do that.
I wasn't sure if Sophie didn't respond as well to widening/lowering because she just isn't used to being asked that way or because the other way is more correct and that's why she responds. I'm really having trouble dealing with this conflict in training methods because Sophie's much more of a clean slate and I had started working with her on stuff from my Lessons With Lendon book and we'd been having some success with it, whereas with my last horse I didn't know as much to begin with and he had different bad habits (don't get me wrong, Sophie is crooked and likes to curl her body like a snail and she will brace against the bit, but he was tense and BTV on his own and hard mouthed and dead sided from years of doing HUS and WP and dressage and everything else). I think in this case my knowledge is causing more friction because I know more than just BTV=bad. I think I know enough to still take lessons with my instructor, I'll just balance what she tells me to do with what works for us, because she really does have a lot of knowledge when it comes to exercises to help get us over a roadblock.
One thing I did notice as a difference between my retired gelding and Sophie is that Sophie will go on just about any rein length (granted, you have to do a lot of circles/leg yielding for it to be a long rein) and she'll keep contact with my mouth. My retired gelding I would be limited to one rein length (short) and it was difficult to keep contact when lengthening the reins much, though I could give with the inside rein quite often.
I just think that we have different goals, I want to learn to ride correctly, and train Sophie correctly. My instructor is more geared toward showing, but not taking as many shortcuts as you can take to get there, however, she did keep commenting on our submission score and how bad it would be two lessons ago, even after I pointed out that I wasn't showing any time soon so it didn't matter to me what a judge would score us right this second. Anyway, I've gotten off topic, I just hate being told my horse doesn't measure up when I see all of these inconsistencies.
Well, I can see you have a much more classical approach, where your trainer sounds very competition oriented, so there are bound to be some minor clashes. Not that there is anything wrong with competition, but it is a very narrow lens through which to view a horse’s training. Having eyes on the ground and someone to give you suggestions is great, and there is nothing wrong with taking what you learn there and supplementing that with your own reading and experimentation. No one is ever going to be as sensitive to your horse’s needs or be as invested in her training as you will be, so I think it’s great that you are looking beyond lessons and shows to really riding and training correctly and building a partnership. Trust your gut and don’t let anyone bully or manipulate you into doing something you’re not comfortable with.
As for the whole low-hands thing, a lot of trainers think it is a cure for every evil, and I’ve even heard trainers say ‘it looks better to judges’ (as if that was the important thing.) But the truth is that a horse that comes above or behind the bit is often doing it because the bit is putting pressure across the tongue and on the bars – the most sensitive parts of the mouth. So why would you increase pressure with something the horse is already trying to evade? It’s kind of the equestrian equivalent of saying: ‘ you want to cry? I’ll give you something to cry about!’ It turns into a vicious circle. Widening the hand may lessen the break of a jointed snaffle over the bars a little, but it doesn’t solve the problem. Raising the hand, however, lifts the bit into the corners, which doesn’t hurt, and from there the rider can help the horse with its positioning without resistance, and when the horse does relax and round, the rider can use a much lighter contact that won’t hurt the tongue and bars.
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